Saturday, August 22, 2009

The Lost Doctrine

A follow up video from the Voddie Baucham quote. Paul Washer expounds a little deeper than the Voddie quote in a 7 minute video called "The lost Doctrine".



Hat Tip to the Word Street Journal

10 comments:

Ike said...

Amen!

Steve Martin said...

There it is, yet once again, the law of religious perfomance laid squarely on the backs of people who have supposedly been liberated from that stuff by Jesus Christ.

Being a fruit inspector leads to self-righteousness.

A word to the wise, forget about being fruit inspectors and just look at yourself.

The Holy Spirit can handle the regeneration project just fine without your help. In fact, He'd prefer not to have your help. Whenever 'WE DO', it turns out to be a problem.

The law says 'DO'. The gospel says 'DONE'.

But when people do not have a Sacramental theology, they need something to hang their hat on, something that they can SEE. So if it's not going to be Christ and what He has done for us in Word, water, bread and wine...then it is going to be ME and MY seriousness at living the Christian life.

No thanks. I'll stick with what He has done, is doing, and will yet do...for me.

Wayne Dawg said...

You point out the key to the whole video in you first sentence...

".....supposedly been liberated from that stuff by Jesus Christ."

It's not a "law of religious perfomance"....no, it is examining ourselves to see if we are indeed in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) that is being pointed out here.

if you listen closely, you will actually hear Washer explain that this is not legalism or works rightousness....no, we are talking about people who have supposedly been liberated by Jesus Christ.

When a person is truly born again he will stumble and occasionally fall, but he will not be perpetually sinning just like the world does.

"The Holy Spirit can handle the regeneration project just fine without your help."

Yes! Absolutely! But the problem Washer points out is that there is no Holy Spirit working in the life of a pretender.

"A word to the wise, forget about being fruit inspectors and just look at yourself."

Washer, a loving preacher of the gospel, is being honest and biblical toward those who profess to know Christ but know Him not.

I'll take that honesty any day of the week and twice on Sunday to show a hell bound man his error and lead him toward the narrow path of life.

You can't be born again and live like a heathen. This is not fruit inspecting...it' a description of a false convert and a lost soul..... thank God there are still men who preach the truth and not pretend that just because someone professes to know Christ that makes it so.

Steve Martin said...

You can say that we are freed by grace all you want. You can say it 72 times a day.

But, if in the end you are telling people what they need to do to be 'real Christians', then you have poisoned all that you have said.

Washer gives the gospel with one hand, and then he takes it back with the other.

He is by no means alone in doing this. It is done all the time by well-meaning preachers who do not know how to distinguish the law from the gospel.

They mix it up and you end up with mixed up Christians, who are busy trying to become better Christians when the reality is that they will never be better Christians than at the moment they were baptized.

Wayne Dawg said...

This is what I hear you saying Steve:

If someone has made a profession of faith and has been baptized, they are saved; no matter what.

Now that person can go and live like the world to their hearts content...because they are saved and their sin is covered!

Continually comitting adultery, lying, stealing, hating, blaspheming God, etc....no problem; you professed Christ and were baptized....just cling to that profession and baptism and sacraments...you're good to go!!

Sin so grace can abound!

You can cling to the sacraments and do them 72 times a day, but in the end, if you are not a changed new creature in Christ all you have done is dunked or sprinkled a false convert.

I for one am not a mixed up Christian who is busy trying to become a better Christian.

In fact, I don't even know what a better Christian is??

Am I more fruitful than when I was first saved 15 years ago...yes! I am continually being sanctified and growing (not of my will) through the work of the Holy Spirit

Better? No.

"He is by no means alone in doing this. It is done all the time by well-meaning preachers who do not know how to distinguish the law from the gospel."

I think we (Baptists/Lutherans) have a completely different biblical view of justification (was saved) and sanctification (being saved).

I think we agree on glorification (the day when we are completely saved).

I understand santification in a totally different universe than you do.

Sorry Steve, I just can't understand someone living in complete unadulterated sin, saying they profess Christ and believing that person ever got saved to begin with.

Steve Martin said...

Wayne,

That is NOT what I am saying at all.

God is the one who decides whether or not we are saved.

But He promises to save us in baptism. (1st Peter and other places)

When people do not have something tangible in their lives to look to, (something that God has done for them), then they will overly spiritualize this salvation or internalize through their efforts, their seriousness, etc.

Preachers do not help this phenomenon when they focus on 'what we do'.

Wayne Dawg said...

"God is the one who decides whether or not we are saved."

Thank God we agre on this. But there are signs of salvation when one is saved.

You say that I/preachers invoke the law when I/we point these things out.

1 John does the same thing.

01. You Fellowship
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

02. You Recognize Your True Sinful State
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

03. You Are Obedient to His Commandments
“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” (1 John 2:3)

04. You Do Not Love the World
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15)

05. You Have Knowledge of Who Jesus Christ Is
“Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” (1 John 2:23)

06. You Look Forward to His Coming
“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2)

07. You Do Not Practice Sin
“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:8-10)

08. You Love Your Brothers
“We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.” (1 John 3:14)

09. You Love Preaching, Teaching and Hearing God’s Word
“We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” (1 John 4:6)

10. You Proclaim Jesus Christ
“Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15)

Ten signs of salvation or invoking the law?

"When people do not have something tangible in their lives to look to, (something that God has done for them), then they will overly spiritualize this salvation or internalize through their efforts, their seriousness, etc."

John says - “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:13)

"That you may know" - Is this list of signs from John something tangible in a Christians life to look to, or is he over using the law?

Law or signs of salvation?

Thanks for your comments.

Steve Martin said...

Anyone could follow you or I, or Paul Washer around 24/7 for a week and come to the conclusion by what we do, or by what we don't do...that we are really not Christians after all.

We walk by faith and not by sight. The flesh (what we do and see) avails nothing.

It is so much better (and safer) to rely on what God has done for you, than to internalize and overly spiritualize.

The external Word (the preached law and promises, and the Sacraments) are all we can really trust, and all that we should trust.

This is the huge difference in our theologies.

Wayne Dawg said...

I'll let you have the last word my friend!

Steve Martin said...

Wayne,

You are a gentleman and a scholar!