Speak of evolution,— here it is,— “When lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” Darkness never begets light, filth never creates purity, hell never yields heaven, and depravity never produces grace.
C.H. Spurgeon
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Even after putting on my "religious anti-science" cap, I still don't understand what this quote has to do with evolution.
Any help, here?
Nohm,
Sorry bud, you're on your own with this one!
I got stuck at;
"When lust hath conceived,".
What does this actually mean?
Cheers,
The refering Scripture is from James 1:14-15.
James is talking about the progression of sin; from within the heart it (sin) is conceived and its ultimate 'evolution', as Spurgeon notes, is death.
Ah..so the evolution that culminates in death. Very good.
Dorci,
Your comment makes no sense.
Wayne,
Fair enough.
Sorry, I just basically said what Wayne said. It's the evolution of sin, which culminates in death, either physical or spiritual, sometimes both.
Lust evolves into sin and sin evolves into death.
Life culminates in death, sin has nothing to do with it.
If there is such a thing as a spirit and there is such a thing as sin then maybe spiritual 'death' might result - but it's basically just fear-mongering.
And that's very good, why?
Hmm..well, let's see. As far as physical death goes, we can certainly hasten our own death by different means of sin, ie alcoholism can lead to a very deadly liver disease, a disease that most likely would not have happened without a lifetime of excessive drinking.
Spiritual death is something that Christians are, or should be concerned about. I have relationship with Christ, and if I choose to live in some sort of sin, that sin will cause a separation in my relationship with Him, not to mention the natural consequences of the sin.
It's the same as if I or my husband were to choose to have an affair. That sin, if continued and unrepented of, will lead to the death of our marriage, not to mention the death of the relationship with Christ of the one who sinned, because a person has to turn their back on Christ to one degree or another in order to sin.
The good in understanding that and heeding the warning is that I won't leave a carnage of pain behind me because I will (hopefully) choose not to live in a perpetual sin and not hurt my relationship with the Lord or anyone else around me.
I hope I explained that satisfactorily.
Ok, so we're all in agreement that we are not, in any way, talking about biological evolution, right?
Correct.
Odd though, isn't it that the more secular the world has become since the Enlightenment and the march of science, the longer people are living? You'd think the more ‘sinful’ and less dependent on GOD modern societies have become, that we should be dying at younger and younger age. But no, the majority of us for the first time in recent history can achieve three score years and ten 'or if we have strength, four score'. And oddly enough, here in liberal, secular, welfare state and free health care Europe we have a longer life expectancy than your average American with her/his expensive, private health insurance, in the most 'Christian' nation of Western society...
So this presents a small, but awkward problem... ‘Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.’ Matt 10:29
If this is the case, if life and death and, it follows, life expectancy itself is determined by God, then why are we living longer? Why in the 19th century when Christianity was a much more powerful force in society and many more people attended church and many of the great revivalist movements took place; why was infant mortality high, the average life expectancy low and many women died in child birth?
Of course there is the ‘get-out clause’ of ‘spiritual death’. If the world isn’t quite behaving the way current (or a certain body of) Christian thought says it should, then let’s say it is a spiritual ‘death’ or ‘warfare’ or ‘metaphor’. I’ve just done a quick search through my concordance and I can’t find any mention of the phrase ‘spiritual death’. I suppose the next step would be to say that it doesn’t mean physical death, but the ‘second death’ mentioned in Revelations.
It always amuses me – as this post demonstrates – that the ‘common sense’, ‘apparent to all’, ‘easily accessible’ truths of the Christian religion very quickly get obscured when people try to be clever with them or read into them more than is necessary. Sin begets death – an idea prevalent in the Old and New Testament (though with marked differences in the theology and cultural views between O.T. and N.T. societies). Why is it not that simple? The more sinful you are the sooner you died, would seem the implied meaning, but no – it has to become ‘spiritual’; is this because the physical and material lives of many non-believers have so little difference with that of believers? Indeed many appear happier, healthier and (I have found) they are often much nicer, well rounded and caring people than many Christians. Just a question, but I think it ties in with this post.
P.S. Since when has alcoholism been a sin?
Hello londonlad; thanks for stopping by!
Spiritual death (I have not done a biblical word search yet) refers to one who has not been born-again.
A person without Christ is spiritually dead.
When we become born-again, there is a reversal from death to life spiritually.
As for man having a longer life expectancy today than in times past....did you not answer the question in your post?
You said, "If this is the case, if life and death and, it follows, life expectancy itself is determined by God, then why are we living longer?"
You said it - ".....life expectancy itself is determined by God...."
The Bible says that man is always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of truth (2 Tim 3:7).
Man is ever increasing in his learning, yet more and more people are not able to come to the knowledge of truth.
Maybe God is allowing us to live longer because He wills that none should perish but all should come to repentance and faith in Christ.
The truth is out there...are you willing to trust Him and find it?
That's some fancy tap-dancing there Wayne..
londonlad - Eph 5:18, "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit."
When the bible says do not do something, it is a sin to ignore the command and do it.
And once again, God allows us our free will. If we want to rob a bank, get cause in the crossfire with cops and die, He can't stop us. But He did know at the beginning of time that that would happen. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have given us a longer life had we chosen to work a regular job.
Nohm, surely you knew that had nothing to do with biological evolution.
Joe A., actually, no I didn't *know* that; I have seen anti-evolution people fit it (biological evolution) into even stranger discussions.
So, I was just making sure.
Dorci,
"And once again, God allows us our free will. If we want to rob a bank, get cause in the crossfire with cops and die, He can't stop us. But He did know at the beginning of time that that would happen. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have given us a longer life had we chosen to work a regular job".
All that tells us is that actions have consequences. That's it.
Of course on the one hand you're saying "He can't stop us" from doing bad things and on the other you're saying "Doesn't mean he wouldn't have given us a longer life.." for doing good things.
So God won't stop bad behaviour (sin), but he will reward good behaviour (grace from sin), is that about it?
Seriously, as Londonlad said, if this were true then True Christians should be living longer than heathens, right? How do you think that tallies with the statistics?
Cheers,
Yes, it's about consequences. God warns us against wrong behavior because He loves us and doesn't want us to have to face the inevitable pain that occurs with the consequences of that bad behavior. He wants us to live lives that bless us and honor Him.
The logical thing to think is that if someone doesn't get shot and killed (to use my lame illustration) by attempting to rob a bank, they will live longer. There's no secret formula in that.
It's not about an entire group of people (Christians) being rewarded by all them receiving longer lives. God cares about the individual person, and He speaks to the individual person and warns against sinful behavior.
I warn my sons not to have sex before they get married because of the consequences they are facing if they choose to do that, because I love them and want them to live happy, healthy lives. I can't stop them if they choose to do that, but my love for them causes me to let them know what they'll face if they do.
I've always told them, and I believe God tells us, we can choose our sin, but we can't choose (or anticipate) our consequences.
londonlad said,
"And oddly enough, here in liberal, secular, welfare state and free health care Europe we have a longer life expectancy than your average American with her/his expensive, private health insurance, in the most 'Christian' nation of Western society..."
I'm not sure you really make a point here based on the average European living about 3 years longer than the average American.
Americans are probably the most obese people in the world, spend the most time doing nothing and drive everywhere they go.
I would argue that the health care system in America is doing a fabulous job keeping over-weight lazy Americans alive almost as long as Euro's!
Matt said,
"Seriously, as Londonlad said, if this were true then True Christians should be living longer than heathens, right? How do you think that tallies with the statistics?"
Do we have statistics showing which group (Real Christians or heathens as Matt describes) actually lives longer on the average?
You'd have to be able to identify the 'True Christians' first.... ;)
Dorci,
All of what you said still applies in a humanist, godless worldview.
Hope I'm not overstepping my bounds, Wayne. If I am at any time, please let me know.
Dorci,
Wayne lets me run around his 'Lawn' all the time with my godlessness on display, so I don't think there's any danger of you overstepping the bounds!
Lol...well, I'm new around here so I thought I'd be polite. :)
Stick around, Wayne is a very gracious host.
Wayne is a very gracious host.
I completely agree.
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