Wednesday, April 29, 2009

Feds Knew NYC Flyover Would Cause Panic

Threatened Federal Sanctions Against NYPD, Secret Service, FBI & Mayor's Office If Secret Ever Got Out

Furious Obama Apologizes: "It Will Never Happen Again"

NEW YORK (CBS) ― A furious President Barack Obama ordered an internal review of Monday's low-flying photo op over the Statue of Liberty.

Federal officials knew that sending two fighter jets and Air Force One to buzz ground zero and Lady Liberty might set off nightmarish fears of a 9/11 replay, but they still ordered the photo-op kept secret from the public.

To say that it should not be made public knowing that it might scare people it's just confounding," Sen. Charles Schumer said.

"It's what gives Washington and government a bad name. It's sheer stupidity."

The flyover -- apparently ordered by the White House Office of Military Affairs so it would have souvenir photos of Air Force One with the Statue of Liberty in the background -- had President Obama seeing red.

He ordered a probe and apologized. "It was a mistake. It will never happen again," President Obama said.

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Now I usually don't make comments anymore about these kind of things, but I thought I might raise my hand on this one.......

Sheer stupidity?

That's an understatement.

The President went on to say; "It was a mistake," Mr. Obama said before a meeting with Federal Bureau of Investigation leaders. "It was something we found out about along with all of you, and it will not happen again."

He found out along with the rest of us?

How can the P.O.T.U.S. not be aware that Air Force Two is being used as a publicity photo-op?

The president must know, at all times, where both Air Force One and Air Force Two are. I am willing to bet that there are major scheduling complexities that have to be worked out for either of those planes to fly at any given time. These planes just don't go up in the air without a major effort on a lot of people's part.

Did the teleprompter let him down again?

How much of a free pass will the mainstream media give Obama on this one without demanding that actions rather than apologies start happening now? What would the press have done if this happened under Bush?

Why would sanctions be threatened against the NYPD, Secret Service, FBI and the Mayors office if the fly-over secret got out?

I have the hardest time believing that Obama knew nothing about this photo-op. More than that, I am willing to bet that only the president of the United States could have given the Ok for this to even happen.

More needs to be done than just make apologies; Obama needs to fire everyone who had their hands on this one to show that he indeed had no knowledge or anything to do with this.






39 comments:

Ralph M. Petersen-Always Right; Sometimes Wrong! said...

A few random comments:
First, I really like your acronym (POTUS).

Second, This is just one more (among many) instance of the POTUS insulting the intelligence of regular, thinking people when He says He knew nothing about it and found out with the rest of us. This guy is the most egotistical president I have seen in my lifetime (starting with "Ike" Eisenhower). It's all about Him and a photo op with AF1 has no purpose if it's not about Him.

Third, Has anyone objected to the press's claim that He apologized? I've listened to His statement and read it several times and it is NOT an apology. Nowhere, no time, no way did He ever express any remorse for it; He simply said it was a mistake. Sure, it was a stupid mistake; we all know that but He never said He was sorry or admitted wrongdoing.

ExPatMatt said...

It's so fun to see how things have done a 180 in the last 6 months.

Before, the lefties were all over any little indiscretion by the Bush administration (illegal wire taps, torture, extraordinary rendition flights, Blackwater ops, an illegal war etc...)

And now the other side gets their turn with all the screw-ups of the Obama administration (stupid photo-ops, etc...)


It'll be interesting to see how programs like the Daily Show handle the fact that 'their guy' is now in office...

Wayne Dawg said...

Ralph - POTUS is not my acronym.....I think the Secret Service uses that for any prez. Besides, I heard that in some forgotten movie somewhere in the past.....

Matt - the only headlines I see right now are the ones about how 'furious' Obama is.

lol...it's like giving your car keys to your 14 year old son and then getting 'furious' when he wrecks the car.

ExPatMatt said...

lol...or like putting forbidden fruit in front of your perfect creation and then getting 'furious' when they eat it!

Wait. What?

Chris Geiser said...

You posted, "More needs to be done than just make apologies; Obama needs to fire everyone who had their hands on this one to show that he indeed had no knowledge or anything to do with this. "

I couldn't agree more brother. I think it is good that you actually see what is all happening politically, not many do. Blessings.

Ralph M. Petersen-Always Right; Sometimes Wrong! said...

So that's interesting. I've been around for 61 years and I have never heard that acronym before. And then today, on The O'Reilly Factor, Amanda Carpenter noted that some of the conservative bloggers have dubbed Him "T.O.T.U.S" which stands for Teleprompter Of The United States.

Very clever and funny.

Wayne Dawg said...

Ralph - hahahahahahahaha.......that is way too funny!

Matt - I can take it! But please don't mock God.

God doesn't tempt anyone or cause anyone to sin. (James 1:12-14)

Adam and Eve were drawn away by their own desires and enticed just like we all are when it comes to the lust of the flesh.

Adam was given a warning about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Eat of it and die. Sounds like good Fatherly advice to me.

You can have anything you want to eat in the garden except 'that' tree, because if you eat of 'that' tree you will die.

Matt, this will bake your noodle ....God knew that Adam and Eve would take the fruit.

Steve Martin said...

The Obama people (in his Admin.) don't want to scare a few top level al-Quaeda terrorists, anbd want to punish those that did scare a few into giving up info. that saved thousands of lives (more than likely)...

but, they have no qualms about scaring the you know what out of millions of New Yorkers.

ExPatMatt said...

Wayne,

It was a joke.

But if you want to look at it more seriously; how is it any different?

You can substitute in '14 year old son' and 'car keys' (your example) into the Eden story and it would look like the father figure over-reacted and shouldn't have been surprised by what happened, Right?

Same temptation. Same restriction. Same disobedience. The difference is, the father is furious because he's worried that the son might crash and hurt himself (or others). Whereas God is furious because of...well...why? Because they disobeyed like He knew they would? Because He was scared that they might become 'like unto us'?

My noodle's just fine when it comes to God being omniscient, of course he knew - the question is; why bother with the whole thing in the first place if you know it's going to result in billions of souls going to hell?

It would be like the father knowing his 14 year old son was going to take the car keys and go do a drive-by on an orphanage - yeah, you can be angry at the kid, but if you knew about it beforehand, you could have just hidden the keys. No?

It seems like you're applying a double-standard and giving God an easy ride because He's God. Which is fair enough, I guess, He is God after all. But on the other hand, it's really not fair at all, is it?

Regards,

Wayne Dawg said...

"...the question is; why bother with the whole thing in the first place if you know it's going to result in billions of souls going to hell?"

Simple - So He can glorified.

The difference between my joke with the 14 year old and the car with your joke about God and the garden is that God didn't put the fruit in the mouths of Adam and Eve and tell them to chew.

Adam and Eve made a choice to willingly disobey God and break His command. The father in my pun willingly gave the keys to the 14 year old...the 14 year HAD the permission ofthe father to drive the car.

Adam and Eve had no such permission to eat of the fruit.


C.S. Lewis once said, 'There are only two kind of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done" and those to whom God say's, "Thy will be done."

2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

Free will was shown in the garden just like it is shown to you today. Obey God and live. Disobey God and die.

Make no mistake; God will be glorified whether you perish in hell forever or whether you repent and trust Christ to save you from His wrath on Judgment Day.

Wayne Dawg said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wayne Dawg said...

Sorry -

That should say "So He can be glorified"

Note to self - read it over first before pushing little button.

ExPatMatt said...

"So He can be glorified"

"Make no mistake; God will be glorified whether you perish in hell forever or whether you repent and trust Christ to save you from His wrath on Judgment Day."

So God gets glorified either way, but one way results in billions of lost souls burning in hell and any one of the millions of other ways He could have done things would not result in billions of lost souls burning in hell.

Can you see why an unbeliever would be hard-pressed to see this God as loving?

Ike said...

"Can you see why an unbeliever would be hard-pressed to see this God as loving?"

Can you see how much He loves you to pour out His wrath upon His Son so that you can spend eternity with Him?

It's very interesting that the Word of God does not recognize athiests. It does teach that men hate God.

Steve Martin said...

"Can you see why an unbeliever would be hard-pressed to see this God as loving?"

I can see it.

Even as a believer I often have a hard time seeing it.

I would not be a believer, had He not made me one.

Even now, my faith is often weak...but He is always faithful to me, even in my faithlessness.

Jonathan said...

ExPatMatt,
Now, I'm not trying to start a Calvin/Arminian debate, but just want to highlight a different point of view. Not all Christians believe that God chooses the saved and lost. Human choice further describes the love that you questioned. If people choose to reject God, then God is forced to send them to hell. If they choose to accept his redeeming work, then they enjoy his company for eternity. Check out the book "What Love Is This" by Dave Hunt.

Everyone else,
Again, not trying to start a debate, just adding my two cents as I see it. I'm really tired of the C/A debate, I believe those on both sides are saved. I'd like to just end it on that note.

ExPatMatt said...

Guys,

A choice with two options, one of which is eternal damnation, is no choice at all. It's the choice an abusive husband gives his wife; "Love me or I'll be forced to hit you."


I get that you think that 'pouring out His wrath on His Son (Himself)' is a gesture of True Love, but it has conditions on it that are near-impossible to meet for the majority of people who have ever lived. Besides, I don't want someone to be tortured on my behalf. I didn't ask for it, I wouldn't accept a vicarious sacrifice even if I believed it happened - it's barbaric!

The abused wife now has to accept her husband punching their son in the face, instead of her - how loving!


If I'm guilty of the heinous crimes that the Bible claims I am, then I'll quite willingly suffer an appropriate punishment - but if child molesters, mass murderers, rapists and 15 year old kids who stole a bar of candy one time before being run over and killed, are all sharing the exact same punishment - then there is no justice in the system that God has established to judge humanity.


This is not free will. This is not justice. This is not love. It is control.


/cat amongst pigeons

Wayne Dawg said...

You may be out numbered for your belief versus ours, but please don't feel like we are ganging up on you to pluck your eyes out...


"I get that you think that 'pouring out His wrath on His Son (Himself)' is a gesture of True Love, but it has conditions on it that are near-impossible to meet for the majority of people who have ever lived."

Like what? What are the 'near impossible conditions'?

ExPatMatt said...

Like hearing about it in the first place!

How many millions of Native Americans, Africans, Aboriginal Australians, East Asians died before the Gospel reached those parts of the world.

Jesus was the only way to salvation, right?

Unless there's a loophole I'm not familiar with...


No worries about the uneven numbers, I only worry that I miss questions/points that people may have made so please, if I've not answered a direct question from someone, let me know!

Matt

Wayne Dawg said...

"Jesus was the only way to salvation, right?"

Yes, Jesus IS the only to salvation.

"How many millions of Native Americans, Africans, Aboriginal Australians, East Asians died before the Gospel reached those parts of the world."

I'm sure millions did; and they still do.

Your question is a round about way of really asking: If God is such a loving and forgiving God, why would He send anyone to hell because they simply never heard the Gospel?

To be brief and let others who might want to chime in let me say this in a nutshell....

God is holy, man is not.

What is holiness? Perfection, incorruptable, pure, without sin, etc.

God is the standard of good. His goodness is the measure that all of us, one Day, will be held to.

Because God is also righteous, His judgment is good. He will always judge correctly and never incorrectly.

Nothing impure or unholy shall ever inherit the Kingdom of God.

That leaves all of mankind in a terrible spot.

Read Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The wrath of God is on all ungodliness - sin.

God hates sin, therefore He MUST punish it. Why, because He is good and just.

Matt, you are trying to see things based on a human appearence of what 'fair' should be.

Remember - NO ONE has ever gone to hell because they didn't hear about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

People go to hell because they have transgressed the Law of God.

Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).

A sinful person can never enter the Kingdom of God.

So, yes, millions upon millions of people will go to hell for sinning and breaking God's Law.

God has a perfect standard and there is no one who meets it.

Wayne Dawg said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jonathan said...

"So, yes, millions upon millions of people will go to hell for sinning and breaking God's Law."

Did they have a chance to enter heaven, even apart from the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?

Yes.

It's in the last half of the verses Wayne gave above,

"because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Every thinking person knows of God, because God manifests himself to all to can ponder on such and be responsible for such knowledge (I'm personally allowing for mentally handicapped, babies, etc). This is evidenced by the fact that very nearly (I resist saying all since I can't prove it) every culture throughout history recognizes what they understand to be God.

Do they know of the existence of Jesus? No. But look at the verse above again. God left them a loophole..."although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God"

Jesus' sacrifice was for all sins, for all people, past, present, and future. Faith has always been required, but it has not always been faith in Jesus. Progressive revelation shows us that our object of faith changes through the years as God reveals Himself to mankind. Adam believed the promise God gave that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Abraham was credited righteousness for his faith in God. Before Moses there was no scripture, but people were responsible for what they knew to that point. At this point, we look back at the cross and now have Jesus as the object of our faith.

ExPatMatt said...

"Yes, Jesus IS the only [way?] to salvation."Says Wayne,


Did they have a chance to enter heaven, even apart from the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?

Yes.
Says Jonathan.

So which is it?


What I get from you, Wayne, is that millions of people go to hell (for sinning, not for 'not hearing the Gospel - I never meant to imply that I thought otherwise, BTW), but that it's all good and fair because God's the one doing it and everything He does is fair and just by definition.

Is that about right?




Jonathan,

There are cultures alive today that have no concept of 'god'. Has God not made his presence known to them?


Cheers guys,

Jonathan said...

It's both of us. Jesus became sin for all, was punished for all, paid the price for all, but the object of our faith has changed throughout the years. Jesus died for those who know of him and for those who've never heard of him. The verses shared in Romans describe how God makes Himself known to all mankind. All they have to do is live a sinless life, but since they can't, which God knew anyway from the beginning, God had planned to send His son Jesus to die for us. And it's not like Jesus wasn't a willing participant. He wanted to do it, because He loves us that much.

As far as the cultures that ignore the concept of a sovereign deity, Yes, God has made himself known to all, as the verse describes. What does the last part of that verse say? They do not glorify Him and their hearts become darkened. They deny the truth they hold in their hearts. That fact leads you back to Rom 1:18-"They suppress the truth."

They know God by looking around at His creation, by contemplating their existence, by dreams, thoughts, and discussions. However God chooses to do it, it happens. They recognize it, and they deny it. Their hearts become darkened and they deserve hell for not placing their faith in God. Like Wayne said, God has a standard so high and pure and holy. But God makes a way for all people. Do they choose to respond to their creator, or do they choose the selfish path of pleasure and vanity? It's faith that saves, it always has been and always will be the only way.

Ike said...

God is holy..holy...holy. When a jew wanted to emphsize something he would repeat it. What does this mean?

He is qualitatively "different" than anybody. There is "no one" like the Lord. And it is in this that you find all of His attributes.

One drop of Christ's blood was sufficient to save the world but only effective for those who believe.

Wayne Dawg said...

I'm no theologian - let me just say this and I'm done.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me."

The only way to have forgiveness of sins and eternal life in Heaven is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

We must repent and put our trust in Him to save us from God's wrath on the Day of wrath.

If there is a native in the deepest darkest tribe in Africa or in the Jungles of South America or even the kid down the street who God is drawing to Himself (John 6:44),God will make sure that that person will have an opportunity to hear the Gospel (Romans 10:14) by sending a missionary or, in the case of the kid down the street, someone to share the message of the Gospel.

ExPatMatt said...

"God will make sure that that person will have an opportunity to hear the Gospel"That is demonstrably untrue.


You are all ducking the issue.

To take Ray Comfort's analogy. We sinners are all falling out of the airplane towards the ground. We can't help it, it's our sinful nature that drags us down to our doom. Every. Single. One of us.

Jesus is a parachute and all you have to do is take this free parachute and put it on and you'll land safely.

The point is this....


There have been billions of people since the time of Christ who do not even know what a parachute is!I mentioned the indigenous people around the world. By your own theology, their 'sinful' nature has condemned them to Hell. They had no way out though, because they never heard the Gospel.

I would appreciate it if someone would actually try to tackle this subject honestly.

Regards,

Wayne Dawg said...

Matt -

I'm sorry you feel that I'm ducking the issue......I don't feel I have.

Comfort's analogy of the parachute is correct.

Without someone acknowledging that they have sinned against a holy and righteous God, hearing the Gospel, repenting and putting their faith in Christ (the parachute) to save them from God's wrath, they will spend eternity in Hell.

If someone could be saved through a loop-hole because they never heard the Gospel, then no missionaries should EVER venture any where the Gospel has yet to be preached.

Why?

Because now we have given that poor native soul a chance to determine his eternal fate.

If the un-reached native repents and puts his trust in Christ upon hearing the Gospel, then good!

If the un-reached native rejects the message of the Gospel the missionary now has the burden of knowing that if he were to have never traveled to this deep dark jungle and preached the Gospel message to the native, he still could have went to Heaven through a loop-hole.

Non-sense.

This is why Jesus told us to go into all the world and preach the Gosple to every creature; because people were dying and going to hell in their sins.

I say it again...and if you can prove me wrong, please do:

If God is drawing a person to Himself, He will create a way, a means, an opportunity for that person to hear the Gospel message.

Thanks

ExPatMatt said...

Wayne, you're still ducking.

What happened to an Aztec who died before the Conquistadors landed in S. America?

What happened to an Australian who died before Cook arrived in Australasia?

What happened to an African who died before the interior was penetrated?


What happens to people who die before the Gospel has reached their part of the world?


You still seem to be claiming that every human since Christ had a chance to hear the Gospel at some point and this is demonstrably incorrect and I don't see how you can argue otherwise!

You know what I'm asking, why won't you address it?

Whateverman said...

As someone who isn't an atheist or agnostic, I have to say that I tend to agree with what ExPatMatt is driving at here.

There are people who simply never will have heard the Gospel. Although they might be able to look at the world around them and conclude "God did this", there's nothing in nature that implies the Gospel; it's simply not self-evident.

(If it were, there'd be no need for it).

Wayne Dawg said...

"You still seem to be claiming that every human since Christ had a chance to hear the Gospel at some point and this is demonstrably incorrect and I don't see how you can argue otherwise!"

No...that is not what I said.

I said if God is drawing a person to Himself, He will create a way, a means, an opportunity for that person to hear the Gospel message.

Ok, I see clearly now (forgive me) the peoples you are refering to.

I don't have the time right this moment to comment in detail...let me get back to you tonight if I can.

thanks

ExPatMatt said...

Ok, glad we reached some understanding on this, apologies if I wasn't stating things clearly.

Cheers,

Whateverman said...

As an aside, I really like it when discussions like this are respectful and sincere.

Kudos, Wayne - and thanks everyone

Wayne Dawg said...

Ok - Like I said before, I'm no theologian and I may not end up answering the question to your ultimate liking.

First -

Let's read Romans 2:12-16;

"For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

People, no matter 'when' after Christ, are condemned not for what they don't know, but for what they 'do' with what they know.

Those who know God's written Word and His law will be judged by them.

Those who have never seen a Bible or heard the Gospel preached still know right from wrong, and they will be judged because they have failed to even keep those standards that their own conscience dictates.

Like I said earliar, you are trying to see things based on a human appearence of what 'fair' should be.

God will judge based on His perfect standard that none of us (no matter when in history) can ever keep.

ALL have sinned. ALL have fallen short of the glory of God.

If God were to give us ALL what we deserve, it would be hell.

Matt, we ALL deserve hell.

You should actually consider yourself very fortunate that you have heard the Gospel many times (on this site and many others that you have been to).

You have no excuse if you were to die today and stand before the Creator.

You know you have sinned. You know the Gospel.

I don't know you other than what you have presented yourself to be here on this blog and a few others, but Matt, I care about you and where you will spend eternity.

Please repent today and put your trust in Christ before its too late.

Peace -

ExPatMatt said...

Wayne,

Thanks for the response.

"Those who have never seen a Bible or heard the Gospel preached still know right from wrong, and they will be judged because they have failed to even keep those standards that their own conscience dictates."And they have no chance for salvation because they are unaware of Christ's sacrifice.

So, under God's system, billions of people - through no fault of their own - have no choice but to end up in hell because they can't help but fail to live up to God's perfect standard.

I don't care whose standard you look to - that's not right! It's totally immoral and the only way you can justify it is by saying;

"God's game, God's rules"

Might makes right, right?

How does the Christian rationalize this mess of morality?

Regards,

Wayne Dawg said...

I'm not going rationalize God's standards.

Put aside for a moment everyone who may not have had an opportunity to hear the Gospel...you have.

What is the real reason you don't repent today and trust Christ?

Whateverman said...

I wont speak for EPM, but I'll answer your question for myself:

There are too many Gods to pick and choose from. As described by the faithful, each seems to want us to worship him. If I choose one, I run the risk of incurring the wrath of dozens of others.

So I'm left with only my intellect, instinct & conscience to help me make a decision. To date, these things have resulted in the conclusion that faithful believers aren't to be trusted when it comes to the fate of my mortal soul. I simply need to search for myself, and not be too concerned with people who tell me my time is running out.

I pray on this occasionally, and you know what's happened? Assuming it's an answer, God's confirmed my suspicions. Let people believe what they want, and I'll simply continue searching for the truth.

So no, I don't find your version of Christ to be more compelling than others. I say that with no malice or "disrespect" intended, seriously. My conscience seems to think I need to keep looking...

Wayne Dawg said...

Thanks for the reply Whateverman -

The Bible says 'There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death'.

Here's something to think about in your search.....

There are only two religions in the world when it comes down to it.....

Christianity and all others.

All other religions in the world are based on what you can do for god to inherit salvation - works based.

Christianity is what God has already done for you - faith based.

Take some time and explore these two different concepts when it comes to forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

ExPatMatt said...

Wayne,

The thing is, I think your God does need rationalizing, because from where I'm standing, He doesn't seem very rational at all.

"Put aside for a moment everyone who may not have had an opportunity to hear the Gospel...you have.

What is the real reason you don't repent today and trust Christ?"
Because I don't believe there is a God, nor do I believe that that God came to Earth in the form of Jesus Christ to die for our sins.

I see no reason to believe that any of this is actually true, and that is based on many different lines of evidence; not least of which is me actually repenting and submitting to God's will and feeling nothing but foolish for the effort.

Just hearing the Gospel isn't enough, Wayne, you have to believe that they are Gospel too. I don't.

And I should think that those billions of poor souls in Hell (according to Christian theology) should be reason enough not to submit to God's will, even if He were real.

Regards,