Tuesday, July 22, 2008

Sarcasm of the year (so far) award

From Douglas Groothuis over at The Constructive Curmudgeon:

Why I Will Vote for Obama

Yes, he doesn't share my views on abortion, but so what? After all, aborted babies go to heaven. If they grow up, they might go to hell. Abortion on demand is the best form of evangelism ever invented. So, with Obama we'd continue to get over a million babies into heaven year, and Supreme Court Justices to insure that it goes on for another generation.

Obama would push for more and more federal funding for abortions, which means we would be using state money for evangelism! How cool is that?! And I'm sure the ACLU would never call him on it. Yes, I know the Bible talks about "Thou shalt not murder" and caring for "the least of these," but let's not get legalistic and impose our Christian morality on others.


Jeff Greathouse said...

I just wish that christian would be concerned for the babies after they are born.

Craig said...

This is a very disturbing opinion. Even most pro-choice people don't promote mass abortions.

WayneDawg said...

Craig - this was a very sarcastic comment from a very pro-life person.

Doug Groothuis said...

To Jeff:

That is an old cliche and meaningless as an argument (if that was intended).

Is abortion wrong or not? What pro-life people do for born children is not pertinent to that question. It is pertinent to their character. But why think pro-life people do not care about born children? What about all the crisis pregnancy centers. What about all the help churches provide for the poor, etc.

steve martin said...

I'm going to vote for Obama too!

His weak-kneed foreign policy and surrender to the Islamo-fascist policy, will end up getting us all killed.

So we can all (Christians, that is) get to Heaven faster.

Doorman-Priest said...

Abortion is one of the ethical topics I teach on our National Curriculum Religious Studies syllabus and I appreciate the challenge of keeping myself up to date on trends and attitudes every year.

There was one thing you said, Wayne, which struck me and is a relevant discussion point every year. You comment about aborted babies going to Heaven. (I won't argue here about the distinction between babies, foetuses, embrios and zygotes). My students are able to rationalise to their own satisfaction the point in gestation at which they believe life begins. What we all have more trouble with is the moment of ensoulment.

Any insights?

WayneDawg said...

DP -

Because I believe that life most certainly begins at conception, I also believe that life has a soul at that moment as well. I really can’t make the case for a soul appearing at any other time of development because that life has already begun.

In fact, the only other case I could make for when a soul begins is before conception.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

Here we see that the Lord knew Jeremiah before he was even formed in the womb. Did the Lord only know Jeremiah before He formed him; or does He know us all before he forms us?

The argument could be made that long before we are conceived our soul was known to God.

If I’m going to err on something as big as when life begins, I’m going to err on the side of conception. That, at least, is when a person has a soul; and maybe even long before that.

WayneDawg said...

I don’t think I answered your first question DP……Do aborted babies go to Heaven?

I would ask; where else could they go? There are only two places; Heaven and Hell. Since the child has never broken a single Commandment and sinned against God, I believe that Heaven is the only place the child could go.

That's what makes the sarcastic tongue in cheek comment from Douglas Groothuis so 'in our face'.

A million babies a year here in the USA..that's infanticide. But some Christians would rather turn a blind eye and justify turning that blind eye because, after all, at least the babies are in a better place now.

Doorman-Priest said...

It wasn't a question. I just acknowledged what you said.

Now, conception: when is that exactly?

Doorman-Priest said...

Sorry, Wayne, just reread the original post. I was attributing Douglas's views to you. I must read with more care.

WayneDawg said...

What is conception?

Once sperm has joined the egg, fertilization occurs and the two become one. Conception!

The human, already growing, then proceeds to embed itself within the womb.

Doorman-Priest said...

That's two stages. Sorry to be pedantic. Is it egg joins sperm or implantation?

WayneDawg said...

As far as the conception itself goes; sperm meets egg and fertilization occurs.

If the talk here is about abortion and at what point its murder, then it is simple for me:

Any human intent to take the life of another human, no matter what stage of development the human is in, is murder.

It doesn’t matter to me if the human is in the first seconds of development, first trimester, second trimester, third trimester, post birth stage, toddler, child, teenager, young adult, middle aged or senior aged, the human is a human from the start to the end and no one has a right to murder that human at any time.

Doorman-Priest said...

The only problem with the sperm meets egg position is that not all fertilised eggs implant and are flushed out of the system naturally. Is that still a conception?

WayneDawg said...

lol.....no problem at all!

I would say that there was conception but no implantation.

Sometimes there is implantation for several weeks and then a miscarriage for whatever natural reasons; but there was still a conception.

The Lord gives and the Lord takes away; blessed be the Name of the Lord!

Chris Kratzer said...

Believe it or not, John MacArthur said in a radio interview that he doesn't give 5 seconds of thought to whether Obama wins or not. His rationalization? That this world and it's concerns are not of the Kingdom of God. Yah, my jaw dropped as much as yours probably just did.